We asked Michael Moore about the gun-violence epidemic, his new movie, and why Donald Trump will get the Republican nomination
Dec 23, 2015, 21:16 IST
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And every time I have traveled since in my life, you've done this I'm sure, you run into things and you go "That's a great idea, why don't we do that?"
Guerrasio: So what took so long for you to get this project off the ground?Moore: I would just come up with another idea. And this would move to the back burner. It moved to the front burner in the beginning of this year when all the negotiations were going on over the Iran deal and conservatives in this country were talking about [how] we shouldn't be signing a deal with Iran, we should be bombing them. And I'm like, "Are you serious?" [Laughs] For the last decade and a half, we've been bombing and invading countries and I just thought I have to do [this film] now and I'm going to make it as an invasion film, in fact. The kind of invasions I would like us to participate in from now on. Invasions of ideas with non-violence.
And I think the enthusiasm for this film and people wanting to see it is partly based on this election year we're in now and the various tragedies that have occurred recently and what do we do? Are we going to get dragged down the rabbit hole again? Are we going to lose another decade of making our country a better place and the world a better place because we're so caught up in violence and war? I think those are all probably part of why people are exited to see this movie.
Guerrasio: You have stated numerous times while doing Q&As at screenings recently that a majority of Americans are in a demographic that should not support Donald Trump, then why are his poll numbers so big?Moore: Yes, 81% of the country is either women, people of color, or youth between the ages 18-31. His numbers are high because they are polling Republican voters, or likely Republican voters in the primary. But when they poll him against [Democratic primary candidates] Hillary [Clinton] or Bernie [Sanders], he still does quite well. I think that's in part because my side of of the political fence is the slacker side of the fence. That even though statistically there's no way Trump can win, because he's alienated those three main groups that make up 81 percent of the country, the difference is his side always shows up to vote. My side, not so much. Then it becomes incumbent upon picking the candidate who will mostly inspire women, people of color, and young people to come out and vote. I think obviously Hillary is going to inspire a lot of women to come out and vote. I think Bernie has inspired a lot of young people to come out and vote. And the African-Americans and Hispanics, probably a split between the two is my guess. When people ask me, "Who should we vote in the primaries?" I say, "You should vote for who you think should be president." Don't vote for who has a better chance, because whoever has a "D" by their name on the ballot is going to win, assuming we get the vote out.My biggest concern about Hillary right now is her lack of inspiration. She doesn't get big crowds. There's not a lot of excitement about her. Too many young people see her as the same-old, same-old politics. So she is going to have to have a bit of what Obama had and a bit of what Bernie has if she's going to be the candidate. I honestly believe that Bernie Sanders could be elected president of the United States. I think people will pour out in droves to elect him and there's just not enough angry white guys anymore over the age of 35 to put Trump in office. Guerrasio: You mention Bernie Sanders - I remember in the first Democratic debate, he brought up Denmark, and it reminded me of your film. What are your thoughts on how he uses Denmark as an example of how we should live our lives in the US?Moore: I say it differently than the way he said it. Also, when Bernie said that, Hillary ridiculed him and I thought, wow, Hillary, first of all, by making that statement she's relying on the ignorance of the American public not knowing how well off their lives would be if they lived in Denmark. There's nobody in Denmark that needs to work a second job. There's nobody in Germany that needs to work a second job. Pencil makers make enough money to have a great life. And I asked them all there if they had a second job and they all laughed at me. They laughed at that question. The way I put it in the film, and the way Bernie didn't, it's not that Denmark has these good ideas; it's that Denmark and Norway and Germany and France, they took a lot of our great ideas and made them a reality.I mean every country we went to, they kept saying to me, why don't you do this or do that, because you were the ones that came up with this idea.
Look, everybody my age or older knows that the world was envious of our public education system. We were the top in the world. We had the best schools in the world for public schools and anybody, regardless of their economic status, got a good education in the United States of America. And they would say to me over there, "Why did you guys give up on that? You just flushed your great education system down the toilet and we just picked up what you were doing." And they did it better. The sense that we started to have is that the whole thing about the American Dream was alive and well over there and here it is exactly what the term implies - a dream. Over there it's an American reality. But they have made it a Danish reality, a German reality, an Italian reality.
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There are more laughs in this movie than any of my other movies since "Roger & Me," but you also feel, and I have seen the movie now with various regular audiences, there's a slow burn that rises throughout the movie of people sitting in the audience going, "How come we don't have that?" "Why don't I have any time off?" Why is it that there's no French word for co-pay or deductible? They don't even know what those words mean when you ask a French person who has been to a doctor. [Laughs]Guerrasio: With all the examples you show in the movie, is there one that you believe could be established in this country right now?Moore: In terms of what can happen the soonest, parents and local school districts can stop poisoning their children at lunch now. They can literally get the PTA and the school board together and say we are going to do lunch differently from now on. I think [universal] paid maternity leave, that's within a year or two of happening. Certainly in the next administration. The decriminalizing of drugs, already happening. Obama's new drug czar on "60 Minutes" declared the war on drugs over. So these things are happening.The things that are going to take a little longer will be returning our schools to the progressive liberal education that they used to have 50, 60 years ago. Post-World War II America. I think the thing that would make people the happiest, if you were polling people - guaranteeing at least a four-week paid vacation every year would go well with everybody.Guerrasio: Looking at the other side of the coin, the big criticism of your movie is, to take the example of Italy, yes, the country has this amazing universal vacation package for its workers, but look at their economy. How do you respond to that?
Guerrasio: Are you concerned that "Where to Invade Next" will have the same fate as "Bowling for Columbine" where no change happens?Moore: No, because sometimes you have to play the long game. I made a film in the '90s called "The Big One." I go to see [Nike co-founder] Phil Knight and I said, "You got 12-year-olds working in your factories in Indonesia," and he said, "They aren't 12; they are 14." Oh, I feel so much better, thank you. But within a week of that movie coming out, he raised the age limit of his workers to 18. He just immediately decided not to use child labor. And I've had little things happen in other films once I put it out there. But obviously, yes, the gun problem has gotten much worse.
During the Vietnam War, you saw what was happening over there on the 6:30 news - that did more to turn people against the war than anything else. A three-year-old washes ashore in Turkey three months ago, and it galvanized all of Europe and they opened their doors to the Syrian refugees. One photo of the three-year-old dead. I don't want the parents to suffer through it, but if the crime scene photos from the next mass shooting were ever released, that night the NRA, they might as well shutter their doors and windows, because they are done. That's what it will probably take.
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Guerrasio: That's a horrific thought, to think that's how far we need to go.Moore: Well, that's who we are. In the end we're human beings, we have a conscience, we have a heart, and you think of Sandy Hook and those 20 six-year-olds all shot at point blank range by this lunatic. Who, by the way, the NRA says, "This is a mental health issue." Yeah, the issue was that his mom bought him guns that neither he nor anyone else should have access to. That guy was seeing two shrinks, first of all, I just want to make this point. His father is vice president of General Electric. Okay. This wasn't just some crazy guy out in the woods. This was a guy who had means, who had help, who had a great health insurance policy. But he also had easy access to guns. Guerrasio: Are you surprised by how people have reacted to the optimism of "Where to Invade Next"? This is a lighter side of you that you're showing.Moore: [Laughs] I hear people say that and I notice it, too. I watch the movie and think maybe I don't let that side out enough. So maybe this movie is closer to the real me as I'm experiencing these things in these countries. Maybe I'm just happy to see that there is a solution to a lot of these problems. You would feel good if you're sitting there and this German guy on the board of Lufthansa is telling you that they now have a law in Germany where it's against the law for the boss to bother you while you're on vacation. And now companies have expanded that and they are getting ready to pass new laws that would make it illegal for the boss to contact you after you go home for the day, unless it's an emergency. You can turn your phone off and have a life. You see happy Germans - when have you seen a happy German? It's a population of very happy people.Guerrasio: Why is the theatrical experience still vital to you? In a world where audiences want more content to stream, why are you steadfast about going the traditional route?Moore: I love Netflix. When you get a cold, that's everyone's go-to, you just binge watch the latest things. I'm in the middle of "Master of None" right now. This is a much longer conversation, but I'll say this: It is critical that documentaries that are made for a theatrical audience have theatrical distribution. I think for the audience it's much better to see some of these films with 200 other people in the dark than home alone. It's a whole different experience.I have to be honest, when I'm watching a movie on television or my computer, I don't really in my head think that I'm watching a movie. I don't know what the name of it should be, but in the same way that they issue the "Mona Lisa" postage stamp, that wasn't the "Mona Lisa," that was a stamp with a picture of the "Mona Lisa" on it. "Mona Lisa" is over in the Louvre. I and the others that make these movies for theaters, we make them for a 50-foot screen. We make them to be experienced with others, because you're going to have a different emotional response. The laughter, the crying, the anger, whatever it is. And I think there's something very valuable about that.Do I like the accessibility that there are computers and iPhones and Netflix and all of that? Absolutely. Because I'm for reaching people whatever way they want to be reached, but I want to encourage people, when they can, to see these movies in theaters. And I think to go to the movies is an active thing, it's not a passive activity. You have to actually commit. You have to get a babysitter; you have to leave the house; you have to spend money. When it's just noise on in the background when you're working at home or cleaning the house or making dinner, it's something else. It's not really a movie.