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A podcast hosted by 2 of YouTube's most controversial personalities is creating new conversations about mental health

A podcast hosted by 2 of YouTube's most controversial personalities is creating new conversations about mental health

Lindsay Dodgson

The "Frenemies" podcast with YouTubers Trisha Paytas and Ethan Klein returned this week after a Christmas break.
The pair have been on a turbulent journey since the show started last year.
Paytas, who openly talks about her struggles with mental health (although her exact diagnosis is unclear), has dramatically walked off the show while filming at least twice.
Klein, who she says "pokes" and antagonizes her, appears ill-equipped to deal with her fluctuating mood swings.
Viewers and mental health professionals alike are unsure whether the podcast is good or bad for mental health representation. On one hand, it's incredibly rare to view such raw conversations about mental illness. On the other, it could be considered exploitative.

In the first "Frenemies" podcast episode of 2021, controversial YouTuber Trisha Paytas said she is "a new Trish this year," who is free from negativity and tantrums. She and her cohost Ethan Klein, a fellow YouTuber with an equally electric reputation, said they were happy to be back together and making episodes again after their Christmas break. The pair were all full of love and smiles as they chatted about their respective diets, what they'd done over the holidays, and took part in a pretend awards show. But it's been a long, turbulent journey to get here.

Less than a month earlier, Paytas had stormed off in the heat of an argument with Klein, calling his wife a "c---," and vowing never to return.

Paytas openly talks about her mental health struggles on every platform she is present on. She often talks about seeing a therapist, her experience with medication, and a constellation of traits and diagnoses she's had or thinks she could have. Her apparent mental illness, she says, leads to rage-induced blackouts when she is triggered, which can culminate in intense, explosive moments where she claims to have no control over her behavior. She has dramatically walked off the "Frenemies" set in tears at least twice since it started on September 15.

Fans of the show can't get enough of the drama Klein and Paytas create, which is then psychoanalyzed by the pair on later episodes. It feels unpredictable and raw. While it's undoubtedly entertaining, both viewers and professionals are undecided whether it is good or bad for the representation and awareness of mental illness.

Viewers don't know what to think about 'Frenemies,' but they can't look away

The first major argument of the podcast occurred on episode 5 - a Halloween special where Paytas, covered in stage blood, left the studio after Klein said she was a "dangerous person to be close to" for revealing private information about him. The fight was particularly surreal because Paytas left behind a baffled looking Klein in an Uncle Fester costume, who tried to unpack what had just happened.

The comments below each episode are filled with onlookers who are left astonished. Equally present are those who feel torn about whether it's appropriate for the show to keep going.

"It's almost like we're seeing something we shouldn't be seeing," Todd Grande, a licensed professional counselor of mental health who makes YouTube videos relating to psychology and behavior, told Insider. "It seems voyeuristic, and I think that's maybe what they're going for."

On the one hand, it's rare to see such an open depiction of someone who has mental health problems, which could break down barriers and stigma. But on the other, some argue that it veers into exploitation, with Klein being incentivized to stoke drama for the sake of views.

"Technically it is exploitative," said Donna Yatz of the YouTube channel Psych IRL, where she discusses topics about mental health and psychology. "However, Trisha has repeatedly said she wants to do the show. Why shouldn't she able to make this decision herself?"

The relationship between the two YouTubers was rocky to begin with

Paytas and Klein have had a rocky relationship that dates back to May 2019, when Paytas publicly took issue with Klein body shaming her in a video. Since then they have had multiple Twitter spats and been the subject of each other's take-down-style videos. They have also intermittently collaborated on Klein's YouTube channels several times, with positive results.

They started the "Frenemies" show when they realized fans couldn't get enough of their dynamic - Paytas is a born entertainer and Klein doesn't hold back on calling her out when she needs reining in. You never know what the next episode will bring, what mood Paytas will be in, or if she'll return the next week.

On episode 13, released on December 10, Paytas became furious with Klein when he said his wife Hila didn't particularly want to be spoken about on the podcast. Hila's storyline adds an extra level of complication because Paytas has been dating (and recently got engaged to) her brother Moses Hacmon, which has been a precarious topic of discussion both on and off the show.

The couple met when the Kleins, who cohost their own podcast under the name H3H3, started a "Bachelorette" style dating show to find Paytas a boyfriend back in February 2020. Hacmon initially registered his interest as a joke, but a real relationship blossomed over the pandemic lockdown.

The Kleins were confused because of the secrecy from both Paytas and Hacmon, and the crumbs of evidence they were receiving on social media, so it took a while for them to take the relationship seriously. This appears to be a continual sore point for Paytas that regularly stirs up drama. Paytas says Klein often "pokes" her and pushes her to talk about things she doesn't want to.

That dynamic isn't unexpected for a pair of influencers. Those in the profession are effectively encouraged to ramp up the drama to keep the audience engaged. But there will come a point where that's not possible anymore, said Grande, who speculated that, eventually, the drama will become too overwhelming for the pair.

'It may not be pretty, but it's real'

The intention behind "Frenemies" does seem to be slightly self-aware.

In two episodes posted soon after Paytas' self-described "meltdowns," celebrity physician Dr. Drew has appeared as a guest. He watched clips and asked Paytas and Klein questions about what went down to get to such a volatile place.

"Seeing the conflict and then discussing a solution with an expert paints a more accurate representation of mental health issues," said Yatz. "In my book, that's a positive."

She said social media has "painted a surface level understanding of psychopathology," and as such, leads to rampant stereotyping and misunderstanding. This, she said, does more damage than good, and dissecting what happened after the fact, like in Frenemies, "may not be pretty, but it's real."

Yatz says Paytas' public work with Dr. Drew could also be limited by the fact that he's a celebrity.

"In the real world, you go through multiple therapists in order to find the right fit for you," said Yatz. "In the world of entertainment, you're really only limited to big name 'experts.'"

Yatz notes that Paytas' regular content, which usually takes the form of stream-of-consciousness videos are similar to journaling, which has been found to have multiple mental health benefits such as boosting mood, enhancing a sense of wellbeing, and reducing symptoms of depression.

"For Trisha, making these stream of consciousness videos may have the same effect as journaling," she said. "What's damaging though is having people comment on these thoughts. Journaling is supposed to be private and cathartic. It's for yourself."

Paytas says she exhibits characteristics of Borderline Personality Disorder

The format of rehashing past experiences with a neutral party does seem to have its benefits. The sessions have highlighted Paytas' fear of abandonment, for example. Paytas and Klein are now aware that when Paytas senses a mere hint that the conversation is going in a direction where she will get rejected for something she's said, she immediately spirals out of control. She creates even more distance by pushing him away before he can do it to her, under the illusion she can reclaim control by lashing out.

Grande told Insider this sensitivity to rejection is a characteristic symptom of BPD, which Paytas says she has characteristics of. Another classic symptom is what he calls the "love-hate cycle," which is idealization when someone is acting how you want them to, followed by devaluation if they do something you disagree with or don't like.

"You're dying when that person leaves you, and you're living when you accept them," said Grande. "So it's a stark contrast. It basically takes relationships and makes them life and death."

He said he's seen it within the context of a few minutes in "Frenemies," where the change can go back and forth quickly.

"The symptoms are actually really destructive because they undermine relationships," he said

The problem is, as a self-confessed troll with a long history of purposeful inflamation, it's hard to know what to believe when it comes to Paytas.

"We don't really know if she's telling the truth or not," said Grande. "This could all be an act. It could all be performance art and it could all be real or somewhere in-between."

Klein is kept just as much in the dark, and appears ill-equipped to deal with Paytas' fluctuating mood swings. Grande said he recognized the look of shock and awe on his face, which is quite common when someone is suddenly faced with a BPD episode.

The question this brings up is whether he should get some type of training to cope, or whether Paytas is ultimately responsible for herself. After all, she has been on YouTube for over a decade, and as Grande notes, she seems "no worse for wear."

"If you look at her videos from years ago and now, she keeps the same pace, her output is good," he said. "She actually seems a little more stable in recent videos, you know, comparatively"

If we take everything at face value, then Paytas has managed to find success through her mental health struggles.

"You took what you were dealt, what you developed, and made it into something very profitable," Grande said.

In some ways, 'Frenemies' is helping to mend Trisha Paytas' reputation

It's easy to fall into the trap of "black and white thinking" and seeing public figures as all good or all bad. But it's rare we see the multitudes one person contains, even if they post on social media as much as Paytas does. Many comments from viewers under "Frenemies" videos state how the podcast does an amazing job of humanizing Paytas and repairing her reputation, which at points has been radioactive.

In her time on YouTube, she has been in innumerable feuds with other creators and offended nearly every community on the platform. But on "Frenemies," people see a different side to her, especially when Dr. Drew comes on to explain at least some of why she behaves the way she does. They have the opportunity to see beyond the trolling and stop seeing her in such black and white terms.

What "Frenemies" needs next is to find more depth. Real conversations about feelings, insecurity, and relationships could propel it into a place where it could really do some benefit to everyone involved, Grande said. Or it might continue living on one stunt to the next until it implodes.